Protect Traditional Marriage: YES on California Proposition 8
Marriage is between a man and a woman.
Vote YES on California Proposition 8.
The protect marriage web site is here.
Technorati Tags: Gay Marriage, Protect Marriage, Proposition 8
Flap's Comments on Politics, the Dental World and Much More
Marriage is between a man and a woman.
Vote YES on California Proposition 8.
The protect marriage web site is here.
Technorati Tags: Gay Marriage, Protect Marriage, Proposition 8
227 Comments
Flap
@200
First, you would have to defeat the federal DOMA (Defense of Marriage Act) and have it ruled unconstitutional.
Kathy
I’ll have to read it again, but I thought that this affected FEDERAL benefits given to married couples. This indicates that no state government can force the federal government to recognize or provide federal benefits to same-sex couples. I assume that STATE benefits are not actually affected by the DOMA
I fully admit I could be wrong, but please tell me where to look if I am.
If I’m right, then article 4 section 1 which specifically talks about individual and interconnected STATE rights and recognitions, could still be illegally affected by Prop 8.
Kathy
Ah, I found it
The first part of my argument is correct but the second is not.
While DOMA does not affect an individual state’s right to recognize marriage it goes on to say that one state can not be Required to recognize a marriage from another, which circumvents the full faith and credit clause of the US Constitution and makes my second argument incorrect.
Prop 8 itself does not violate this
So while Prop 8 can be fought as a violation of the 14th amendment
It’s DOMA that can be fought as a violation of article 4 section 1
Flap
@203
Kathy,
These are federal constitutional arguments. If they are mentioned in the suits against Proposition 8 then the entire flap goes to the federal courts and ultimately to the United States Supreme court. If the No on 8 folks stay with revision vs amendment argument they might win but probably not.
Plus, since 30 states have passed state constitutional amendments you will have Congress attempting to amend the U.S. Constitution which would take some effort but is doable.
I don’t think the gay marriage folks will want to stir the pot and roll the dice with the U.S. Constitution.
You might find this piece interesting as to what might happen with existing same sex marriages:
http://volokh.com/posts/chain_1225907782.shtml
Kathy
Sorry, I hate to make so many posts in quick succession, but I take back what I said @203.
Even without DOMA, the wording in Prop8 would still fail to recognize marriages from other states because it fails to recognize ANY marriage. So whether or not the defense of marriage act even existed the WORDING IN Prop 8 ITSELF would still allow California to ignore marriages from other states.
This is unconstitutional; DOMA just makes it legal.
Flap
Kathy,
Take some time and read some of the links I have published here on the legal aspects of Proposition 8.
http://flapsblog.com/2008/11/07/links-for-2008-11-07/
Any use of a federal constitutional argument in overturning Proposition 8 will remove the California Supreme Court jurisdiction and place the decision ultimately to the U.S. Supreme Court.
Don’t think the lawsuits for No on 8 are going in that direction.
jay
PEOPLE, WINNING PROP 8 WAS THE JUST THE BEGINNING!!!!!
WE NEED TO KEEP FIGHTING FOR WHAT WE BELIEVE IN ASWELL!!!!!
WE ARE BEING DISCRIMINATED FOR OUR BELIEFS!!!!!
IT TRUELY SEEMS AS IF
WHAT WAS RIGHT NOW IS WRONG
AND WHAT IS WRONG NOW IS RIGHT (MORALY)!!!!!
LETS KEEP AT IT AND UNITE TO BE HEARD
WE NEED TO RALLY AND CONTINUE SPREADING THE WORD
Diana
90 Million dollar spent on a campaign, now you are arguing it’s validity? Why didn’t all the opposers sit tight to fight this battle after, or better yet fight it on the basis of it being unconstitutional before going on the ballot, oh, wait they did, and the ballot measure went forward. Why don’t California Equality and the other gay advocates place their own initiative on the ballot? Wait, no, that wouldn’t work either because at this time, you don’t have the vote of the people. You know it wont go far, 30 States are quite clear on the issue now. 300 people yelling and screaming HATE at one of the most respected religions wont get you any ground either, the Yes on Moral Values Communities is just getting stronger over all of this, it was proved by the grassroot effort performed. Although ‘No on 8’ liars were standing at almost every polling place trying to confuse the voter, I was called a Lesbian. That is really low, prove your point with facts, inform the voter, and if you prevail, it will be the law of the land. The shenanigans and tantrums being thrown will not go far in any arena.
Kathy
Diana, I notice you didn’t comment on my response to you @178 about the shenanigans conducted by your side. Or how about the calling system using Obama’s voice implying that he supported Prop 8 when he actually opposed it?
But I don’t think it’s productive to keep going back and forth about who told more lies, as neither of us would get anywhere with it.
I also don’t really understand your voting story Diana.
Were you being heckled? Were they seeking support?
Why would they call you a lesbian if you were FOR 8?
If they were supporting equality for gays then they obviously do not see homosexuality as a bad thing and calling someone gay would NOT be the insult of choice. In fact, it would not be an insult at all. And if they didn’t know that you supported 8, what possible good could the label have done?
And I realize that this is nit-picky, but you can’t really have a Grassroots Effort by people who are already a part of the traditional power structure.
Kathy
.
Diana
Kathy,
Just in case you check in, I’ll do this quickly. You are completely correct on the lies told by the oponents, so I’ll stop there. Intertwined, however is what happened at the polls, dirty tactics. When we got there (later in the evening) a group of ‘no on 8’ was confusing a couple who were not sure of what the measure meant. When I tried to tell them that ‘yes’ was fo no gay marriage and ‘no’ for gay marriage, your group started calling me and my group lesbian and faggots and told them not to listen to us, to go and vote quickly…. they were confusing people right at the polls! Even within 100′, there was police intervention and a few were detained. That is reality, that is the truth.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
Cite This Source
American Heritage Dictionary – Cite This Source – Share This grass roots
pl.n. (used with a sing. or pl. verb)
People or society at a local level rather than at the center of major political activity. Often used with the.
The groundwork or source of something.
“Traditional power structure” give me a break …. please. I was feeding my 6 month old when I got a call from a friend to join in … hardly the power structure. This effort was done by moms like me and other concerned citizens. Which I can assure you, will do it again.
Just for conversation sake, please tell me which add was hitting below the belt? If anything, they were all responses to the dirty misrepresentations by the no campaign. The King and King book does exist and Mass teacher did read it to a classroom, Jack O’Connels website does state 96% of schools od teach marriage in class … please tell me, which one?
By the way, the nasty piece aired on election day
http://www.kutv.com/content/news/topnews/story.aspx?content_id=e1f83189-843f-41d7-84c4-2029fbd9a2ce
Was really as low as your campaign could have possibly gone… and the anthrax hoax at an LDS temple, classy very classy. I wonder how all those mushy middle Californians feel after seen this attack on one of the county’s most respected religious organizations.
Paul
Future Police State Emerges on Prop 8 Protest (11.08.08)
http://framingtheworld.com/videos/othervideo.html
Kathy
Every one else: sorry this is so long
Diana:
You may think that Prop 8 spoke to a “greater issueâ€, but the LEGAL ramifications of 8 affected marriage ONLY. Nothing else.
What made me angry about the yes on 8 ads was that none of the ones I saw had anything to do with marriage, but rather with “protecting the childrenâ€.
What I already wrote was that the Yes on 8 use of scare tactics were low. Prop 8 was about marriage. Nothing else.
It was not about children, it was not about education it didn’t talk about education, it didn’t actually affect education; Prop 8 only affected marriage, and even then, only for some
.
I know that King and King is a real book, but guess what… passing Proposition 8 did not and will not prevent any teacher in any school from reading it to his or her students, because Prop 8 did not put any restrictions on education. Only marriage.
If the reason for your yes vote was to prevent gay marriage being taught in schools, then you need to propose a separate law that states that, because NOTHING IN EIGHT prevents it from continuing to be taught.
If the reason for your yes vote was because you feel that marriage is strictly a “family issue†to be discussed at home, then you still need to petition the California school board to eliminate teaching of marriage in schools altogether because that was NOT A PART OF 8 either.
The marriage component in the health and safety education for school is not strictly about marriage, but about relationship differences between couples.
Same-sex relationships, whether they are dating, marriages, domestic partnerships, or civil or religious unions would still fall under that category. So even with the passage of 8, there is nothing in it that will keep schools from talking about same-sex marriage (as many people are already married); nothing that would prevent talking about domestic partnership (as that would still be legal); nothing that would prevent any school or teacher from addressing gay marriage or partnership in other states or countries.
Claiming that your yes vote would affect any of that is a lie, it is a scare tactic, and THAT is the claim that is truly guilty of confusing the issue.
Kathy
I also touched on the wording used in the voter guide about the “activist†judges @57. While I agree that this is only a SLIGHT mischaracterization…
I also commented to you directly about the phone calls (and flyers) that implied that Obama supported Prop 8 when he actually opposed it.
But I take it that you didn’t feel that that was a lie or an attempt to confuse people either.
.
By the way, the percentage you have is 96% OF MIDDLE schools and HIGH schools.
Read the study.
You already said that you would talk to your children about gay marriage at age at 8 or 9 but you object to discussing this topic with HIGH-SCHOOLERS?
Do you honestly believe that someone who is preparing for college can not “handle†the concept of homosexual relationships, much less lasting, committed ones?
And by the way, according to the Education Code Section 220 within the health and safety education “It shall not teach or promote religious doctrine nor reflect or promote bias against any person on the basis of any category protected by the non-discrimination policyâ€
Which means it could be argued that gay marriages/civil unions/domestic partnerships would still be REQUIRED to be included in any HIGH school that included relationships as part of their health and safety education.
And like I said above, Proposition 8 wouldn’t affect it anyway.
Diana
Kathy, WOW, are you really that naive …. I really gave you more credit prior to you last two remarks. Wow. Low because “Yes on 8” utilized Mass. as a model of what is to come? What is so low about that? The same groups behind the Mass. movement are here in California, am I suppose to believe that it would be any different? If gay marriage would of continued to be enforced, more school districts would have felt in full right to teach the current situation and have more ‘coming out days’ and let’s not forget, pass out the little ‘ally’ cards to our 5 year olds. Now with the ammendment, they cannot, irregardless of ECS 220, because it is now clearly defined in the constitution, which supercedes all other civil codes. You are right, you can continue making ‘slight’ mischaracterazations, but we both know the bottom line. Come on, I know you are brighter than that. So, please, tell me something, why didn’t the ‘No on 8’ campaign focus on gay marriage … I didn’t see one single straight forward gay marriage commercial anywhere! How dispicable! Now I am laughing (SARCASM). You know if ‘no’ would of clarified it for the people that voting no would help the LGTB the margin would have been, much much higher…. we both now that.
You have failed to follow-up on the rest of my comments, do you not see what is happening here? The LDS people are now being persecuted and black listed by the most tolerant …. hmmm? That is not making any sense to those sitting on the fence of the issue. A lot of us are wondering why they (you) are not protesting outside a baptist church in south-central LA? The African-American community outvoted the LDS 8 to 1?
Again, please, I know you know better than to get on that boat ….. they or you (don’t know if you are involved) are going about it the wrong way. The LDS know how to behave in these situations…. we are civil, dignified and politically correct in the way we take about action. Now that is commendable and worth a double look.
Kathy
Diana,
Do you know what the out-group homogeneity bias is?
It is where a person sees their own group as being a diverse aggregate of varied individuals, but members of an “outside†group to be highly similar to one another.
My GROUP didn’t do that. Those INDIVIDUALS did.
I didn’t talk about acts of discrimination against homosexuals (discrimination which you yourself condone, provided of course that it’s for “moral†reasons)
I didn’t talk about acts of violence against homosexuals
I also didn’t talk about the specific instances of people leaving Yes on 8 flyers INSIDE polling booths
The REASON I didn’t talk about this in regards to the CAMPAIGN itself was because I know they are acts of individuals and not necessarily representative of you, nor of the group as a whole.
The reason I did not address the anthrax hoax is because it obviously was NOT done by the condoned and coordinated No on 8 campaign, but by one or two nut-jobs who deserve to be prosecuted. I do not consider them to be “my†group any more than I consider people who commit hate crimes against homosexuals to be a part of “your†group.
As far as the specific ad you mentioned goes, many people (both straight and gay) feel that prop 8 was an invasion of individual rights as well as a circumvention of current law. They felt, and still feel, that religious groups have no place in regulating legal practices of private citizens. The ad was using an ANALOGY of an invasion of the family home and destruction of property to convey the emotions associated with the GENUINE dissolution of marriage and elimination of rights which were felt by many to be as a result of an invasion by outside forces.
As a persuasive argument, I think the ad was ineffective and childish
As an analogy, I do NOT think it was inaccurate.
Truthfully though,
I simply didn’t want to get into a discussion with you about religion because one, I didn’t want to “go thereâ€, and two, I didn’t think I could do so calmly. Now that I’ve waited a bit, I feel free to say that I took issue with your “most respected†religion comments, and wondered if you were talking about Christianity in general or Mormonism in particular.
Kathy
I was going to wait for your response to post this but I am done for the night so here goes:
As far as the wows go, Try to be a little less condescending.
Also, try to listen
What I said was, that proposition 8 does not affect education LAW
It affects marriage LAW
ONLY
You claim that “Now with the amendment, they cannot…â€
Really? Who says?
Show me SPECIFICALLY where in the wording of Prop 8 does it talk about education? Show me where it says it eliminates the DISCUSSION about same-sex couples… Show me where it LIMITS marriage discussions to only what is currently legal in THIS state alone…Show me where it talks about schools…
Don’t listen to the ads ABOUT prop 8
Tell me where, specifically, IN THE PROPOSITION ITSELF, it talks about education
It
Does
Not
While the book King and King DOES talk about marriage, and California recently banned the LEGAL recognition of same sex marriage… not one thing in 8 says that DISCUSSIONS about marriage are prohibited… not one thing in it that says that BOOKS about it are banned.
And as far as the ally cards go, they actually don’t say a SINGLE THING about marriage. AT ALL
They talked about promising not to conduct or to condone hate speech.
ONLY
(It still astounds me that you are so thoroughly offended by this)
In any event, even if you ignored the legal limitations of 8 and somehow believed that proposition 8 has the power to eliminate the discussion of same-sex MARRIAGE, it does not eliminate the discussion of same-sex PEOPLE.
And because the ally cards do not once talk about marriage, what EXACTLY would keep these cards out of schools?
Nothing.
AT ALL
Diana
I’ll cut this short because, I have got to keep moving forward, this was a few months of my life and I must trudge onward and it will be my last reply, at least for now— My little boys need me.
I can assure you that we would not be black listing gays if we would have lost, we would have gone straight to court. What a waste of resources and time- and I suspect will ultimately do nothing for the cause.
Yes, I meant the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Yes, I am a member. I am a Colombian-American who was born in the church and have seen the fruits it has produced through its short history here and abroad; as well as in my life personally. I don’t know where the ‘most respected’ quote came from, I could not find it in my last comment, but since you mentioned it, sure, the LDS church is well respected and now recognized for it’s massive humanitarian efforts and well-known members world wide. However, Prop 8 was not a Mormon movement, as I know you are all well aware of.
We clearly see thing very differently and I for one respect that. Something that a lot of people in this world and in particular some groups in California do not. I am entitled to express my views, volunteer and give of my means in however way I deem it proper. A little obscure fact about the LDS teachings (if you are not looking for it) is that we all have something called AGENCY, we each govern ourselves individually. We don’t get guilt trips, or have pressure from above, that’s the beauty of it. I always get a little sad when I see people who are angry at the church, not because they are, but because there is so much sadness within them. We learn to be a happy people, to live through adversity and challenges, we choose … as we all ultimately do to be happy or angry irregardless of what has been served to us. That is why it’s sad to see these people living a life of anger and hate. As much as the groups try to repel hate, it is obvious that it is consuming them.
You will continue fighting for what you think is right, as will I, for now, as far as discussing this over and over again will produce no fruits, hence a waste of our time. However, if need be, I will step forward over, and over again.
You a long with many believe that because we have a difference of opinion regarding a ballot measure it give protestors the right to inflict chaos on society and in particular, a religious group. You are giving us too much credit, the LDS population in California is less than two percent. Why focus on us? Because we are a well organized society? Because we stand for what we believe in? Because we exercised civic duty? I will not take a single step back, these are my belief and these are my rights. We will hold our ground. You just wont see us standing in a corner in Laguna Beach shouting this, we don’t have to.
You said it, ‘Legal’, it is now the law in California, and in another 29 states that marriage is defined as between one man and one women. The ‘King and King’ book is very offensive to the very core of my moral values. Homosexuality IS WRONG in those values. I along with many others will teach our children that. However, aside from this, we have shown and will continue to tolerate, for we must share this land. Social acceptance will not come from HATE which is spewing all over the place. No more mr. nice gay? Interesting, what will come next, mr. mean gay? Wait, yes, we have been seeing he/she lately. Whether this proceeds and is beat by the new Imperialism that is taking over our local and national government, I cannot foretell, I can just continue living joyously next to my family. I will not hold any hate in my heart and soul over any of this, it was never about that, and it will never be. I believe in GOD, you might not, I have faith in HIM, and you might NOT. That might ultimately be the only major difference between us. I have fought the good battle, after that, it is all in HIS hands, no matter what. I can now go to sleep -happily.
Kathy
I have no doubt that you find King and King offensive
I simply pointed out that 8 had nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not it is read in a classroom.
I believe in equality.
I also believe in God; I never said I didn’t. I just do not believe that religion has any place in legally segregating people and do not believe that it honors God to do so. THAT is where we differ. Not the belief IN God, but ABOUT God.
I will not continue to debate your conflicting statements that homosexuality is wrong and sinful, unacceptable and intolerable, and still feel you are even ABLE TO CLAIM that you accept homosexuals as a people after you just said that they are wrong and sinful and unacceptable and that you refuse to tolerate even the mere mention of them in schools.
I will say though that the reason LDS groups are receiving the majority of the attention is because they are the single entity that donated the highest amount of money. So a population that makes up 1 point 4% of the population provided something like 40% of the funding.
Nobody is giving you full credit for prop 8, just the majority of it. It’s not about “targeting†any random religious group, or even one specific one; it’s about giving the most attention to the specific group that most affected the campaign.
And as far as “most†goes…
You did in fact say ONE OF the most respected religions @ both 208 AND 211.
I will end with one final thing. Was it not you who found it so absolutely reprehensible “that 2% of the community tried to impose their lifestyle on the other 98%†?
Just sayin’
Diana
WE WERE PART OF A
C O A L I T I O N
IF WE ONLY HAD 2% BACKING THE PROPOSITION, DO THE MATH …. UHHH WE WOULD HAVE LOST AND WOULD NOT BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION. SILLY, SILLY UNFOUNDED ARGUEMENTS AND POINTS. IT WAS IN FACT ALMOST 53% OF THE POPULATION (IF NOT MORE DUE TO CONFUSION) THAT SAID “NO, YOU CAN’T”.
Kathy
no need to yell
I was just using very your own words to make my argument
I never said that it was 2% of the population that were against gay marriage, just like you never actually said that it was JUST 2% who were for it – otherwise, we wouldn’t have had such high numbers either
What I said was that it was less than 2% of the population that did most of the funding, and less than 2% of the population that ran most of the ads, and less than 2% of the population that spearheaded the coalition
whose acts had nothing to do with children,
and everything to do with taking away rights from adults.
Johnny
Woh woh, I can see this is a touchy issue. But I always thought people had the right to do what they want, within reason? I guess “reason” is different for each person. Remember to respect each other’s point of view, even if you don’t like it. That’s what America and freedom is all about.
Derek
I agree we need to get back to traditional marriages. I also feel that anyone , who has had a divorce really has no right to chime in on this subject. You are adulterer, you lied to God in his house and in front of witness. A traditional marriage is arranged by the father in the household and is until death do you part. If you can lie to God, who will you not lie to! Divorce should be outlawed. It destroies the sanctity of marriage. According to Merriam-Webster, the definition of sanctity is,” holiness of life and character : godliness.” The key word here is CHARACTER! How can anybody trust a word you say – you are a lier. You have no character and you should be shunned by society. You are wicked and unholy. You should not be allowed to hold public office and you should not be allowed to vote in any election. Children in Divorced households should become wards of the state, you should have no rights to raise a child with your unholy beliefs. You are unfit to wash the dirt from my feet. You should be branded on your forehead with a large D so that all can see that you are wicked and unworthy of acknowledgment as a human being. If I had my way you would all be arrested and loced away for life.
Stephen
Check out the three articles about this at http://www.squarewondotorg.wordpress.com. It has Parts I, II, and III. Here’s a link to part II
http://squarewondotorg.wordpress.com/2009/03/19/prop-8-and-circular-reasoning%E2%80%94part-ii-defining-the-%E2%80%9Cright%E2%80%9D-in-question/>a/>
It touches on the procreative natural law in Part I, legal due process arguments in Part II, and Part III, coming out tomorrow, addresses the public benefits of traditional marriage.
Rodney Howard Browne
The campaign over Proposition 8 was fiercely contested. In the aftermath of the vote, an intense focus on Proposition 8 has continued with rallies and protests around the country through the end of the year, and with litigation focusing on many aspects of the initiative and campaign finance.
Myles Goeden
Yo you are a legend. Superb read
George Vreeland Hill
When two people get married, it is because they love each other.
They want to be together in a bond that makes them one with each other forever.
It is a wonderful thing to have such a bond.
It is special.
It is love.
When a man and a woman get married, no one blinks an eye.
If two men or two women do the same, then many people do not approve.
They claim that it is not right or that it soils the real meaning of marriage.
What is the real meaning of marriage?
The answer to that question is in line one of this article.
It is because they love each other.
Does it matter if the couple is gay or straight?
Should it matter?
No!
After all, why should it.
Gays want their equal rights and among those equal rights is the right to be married.
I agree with wanting equal rights.
We are all people which means we are all the same.
It does not matter if someone is gay, white, black, a man, a woman, tall, short, young, old or whatever.
We all want our equal rights.
That is our right.
However, we need to go beyond equal rights when it comes to gay marriage.
Society needs to understand that any marriage is not about the right to be married.
It is about wanting to be married as a loving couple.
Love is not something that should be decided on by voters.
It is not a court issue either.
It should not be an issue at all.
Marriage is between two people in love.
It is not between two people, the voters, the courts and anyone else who has an opinion.
Gay marriage does not bring down the meaning of marriage.
It makes the true meaning of marriage even better.
That is what love does.
It makes things better.
Society has come a long way in the last fifty years in terms of equality, but we still have a long way to go.
It is a shame that love is something that needs to be fought for.
I am not gay, but I am the same as you as you are to me.
May love conquer all.
George Vreeland Hill