Charles Manson Follower Susan Atkins Denied Compassionate Release
Charles Manson followers Leslie Van Houton, Susan Atkins and Patricia Krenwinkel
Today a California state parole board denied Charles Manson follower and convicted murderer of Sharon Tate and her baby “compassionate release.”
If you recall, Atkins was the killer who wrote the word “PIG” in Tate’s blood on the front door of the home shared by the actress and her husband, Roman Polanski.
Here is the graphic photo of Sharon Tate’s death:
Remember Susan Atkins famously told a sobbing and begging Sharon Tate prior to her murder and mutilation, “Look bitch, I have no mercy for you.”
Susan Atkins should remain incarcerated for the rest of her natural life.
Look BITCH, the people of California have NO MERCY for you.
Update:
Bob, a commenter has written about his experiences with Susan Atkins and Charles Manson. Here is his photo which goes along with his fascinating story. Please read below.
Technorati Tags: Charles Manson, Sharon Tate, Susan Atkins
169 Comments
Interested
Wow, Gale. I honestly believe that you are completely insane. How is 40 years “too long” for mass murderers? I think if you have ever killed anyone, you shouldn’t be released. Period. You say God forgives and okay I can understand that if you make a little mistake of some sort, but going out and killing people? Especially as brutally as they did? That’s an unforgivable sin. I don’t believe in anything the Bible says, but I know that if I or anyone I know were to kill someone I would not feel any sympathy for them. They can rot in prison and spend the rest of their lives thinking about what they’ve done. These people had absolutely no sympathy for the people they killed, so why should the rest of the world show sympathy to them? Doesn’t the Bible also say treat others the way you want to be treated, or something of the sort? I don’t care if it’s been 40 years or more, what she did was her own fault and she’ll just have to live with that the rest of her life. Every action has a consequence.
I also have read alot of others saying to have compassion for her because she is dying and usually I would. My eyes well up with tears when people I don’t even know die. But did she have ANY compassion at all for the people she killed? No. “Look bitch, I have no mercy for you.†Well guess what? Karma’s a bitch & I have no mercy for HER either.
Gale
Interested, your opinion of me means absolutely nothing.
If you dont believe what the Bible says, why are you quoting it?
The Bible also says that we will be forgiven by the measure that we forgive.
debra
look I was incarcerated with these woman….back in 1983. Susan was a stud broad, bullying her cell-mate and even making threats on her cell-mate’s life. She is not the idol prisoner you read in other posts, on especially her husband’s web site (lol) ! These three woman, of course took/take/partake in every activity afforded to them, what the heck else do they have to do with their time?????
I hope America, especially the california parole board, remembers what evil lurks inside these woman! They should never be released into society!
NO PAROLE!!!!! They all deserve to die in the California Institute for Woman’s prison system.
brittany.A
johnny g, your whack. stop acting like a teenager. you want everyone to listen to what you have to say, and then when ChinaB makes A VERY GOOOD ARGUMENT, you just say you dont wanna hear it. Is that because you know its the truth? We do have laws, and the laws we have obviously dont intertwine with religions views but thats something we have to get over. Like i said before, not you johnny g, or you gale, or me in fact, would get special treatment. If you break a law, you pay the price, you cant just kill people cold heartedly, and decide 40 years later that maybe we should let this insane whack job out just because shes sick. Plenty of people are sick, and especially in jail, so why should their be exceptions to certian people? you say its because she murdered famous people? okay funny joke. im pretty sure that when you kill someone and your convicted, (famous or not) you go to jail, maybe it would be different if she was only sentenced to 40 years, but she wasnt.
antonio alejandro
it takes a different kind of person to do what Susan Atkins did. She should not be release for the reason that those who lost their loved ones on that august night, those that lived the horrors of their relative being slaughtered should feel that justice has been carried out. I believe that remaining in prison should be sufficient, because the state should give the society the idea that death under any circumstances is wrong. While i say that, I do wish that certain people on dead row, people like the night stalker, or Susan Atkins be put to death.
Truth
Gale and Johnny G are the same twisted person. They are Susan Atkins. And those posts come from the same place – prison.
Gale
My posts do not come from prison, but you can think what you want. I am one person, I have no idea where Johnny G. lives. Speaking of twisted minds, who would even think that one person would want to post as two? Why? You need a check up “Truth”. Seriously.
Ginger
Susan needs to die already, in prison. Let God forgive her, not the parole board. She will have a better death than she chose for her victims.
The anti-Gale
Let’s all just be thankful that God chose brain cancer to end her life. It is probably the worst way to be removed from this world. She has no doubt wished that she had only been stabbed 40 times and been done with the pain more quickly. The Lord works in mysterious way.
Flap
The latest post and comment thread has just been posted: http://flapsblog.com/2009/09/03/charles-manson-follower-susan-atkins-denied-parole-again/
Bottom Line
I am a Christian. I do believe Christ forgives and wants us to do the same. I do believe after finding Christ, you CAN change. I do believe Christ has compassion and wants us to have the same. However, when Christ forgives or offers compassion, it does not mean that sinner does not have to pay for their crimes. Our justice system found her guilty and her sentence was ultimately life. Not life ‘pending’ terminal illness. She should serve her sentence and just be grateful that she found Christ before SHE died.
Alpha
if someone murdered me, i would want that they never forget and keep fighting for it.
if someone murdered my love ones, i dont think i can forgive and FORGET at the same time.
and it would be adding more pain on my part when someone else, whose family was not murdered on that same night would have the nerve to tell me for forget, let go and set her free.
Who do you think you are to tell the family of the victims to let go? To this day sharon tate’s family still fight for it, because it still hurts for them.
forgive when it has happened to you, but don not impose or suggest to the other victim to do the same, they grieve on their own way, and while i do agree that it would be truly nice to forgive and let go, fact is they havent. it has affected THEIR lives and some who were equally afraid that time.
Some people preach of christianity and forgiveness yet the mot simple respect could bot be afforded to the truely affected by it. Someone read a book and was converted yet the most grahic of all crimes skips her mind.
Is respect for others so hard. Is it? That we keep on insisting they be released when the aggrieved party has already made it clear many many times in parole – ITS NOT OKEY FOR THEM. RESPECT THAT!
Momnmesa
This woman committed a horrible crime. She watched her victims beg for mercy and in return she showed no mercy. It takes someone purely evil to go against human nature and butcher another person the way these victims were butchered. I am glad that God himself has given her a horribly painful death sentence, brain cancer. She gets to live knowing she is dying a slow and painful death without the loving arms of family.
DisgustedFor40Years
Hey peoples. Stop confusing the relationship between Susan & God with the relationship between Susan and the People of the State of California. The two relationships have zippo to do with each other. The parole board followed the law 100% when they refused to certify Susan as suitable for parole. Read the California Code sometime. Her lawyer and husband needs to read it as well, because his statements concerning it are full of nonsense. As for God’s forgiveness (or lack thereof), we will never know. It isn’t any of our business and has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with her prison sentence.
The anti-Gale
Don’t worry about any trouble with her and God. She’ll never see God, she’s going STRAIGHT to Hell on the non-stop Red Eye.
Gale
…and how do you know she will never see God? She will and so will you and all of us, to give an account for our lives, good or bad.
Oh, and for those of you who are happy that Susan has brain cancer and is suffering, she is resting comfortably.
Shame on you to be glad about this to anyone, are you human???? Think about it.
Mudhooks
Gale says: “I am sure we all can think of times in our lives we wished we had done things differently.”
I have done plenty of things I “wish I had done differently” and perhaps she wished she hadn’t murdered Sharon tate and her baby… The fact is, she did and as much as she may (allegedly) wish she had done things “differently” (used a sharper knife, perhaps?) she cannot EVER go back and give back the lives she took. The law is the law and while we can have compassion that she is, herself, dying, too bad, so sad, she has to do her dying where she is.
As for her being a “lovely person”… she is a “lovely person” who cold-bloodely murdered…. Even “lovely people” have to pay for their crimes.
Even the most heinous humans who have walked the face of the Earth have some “redeaming” traits… Hitler made the trains run on time. We do not have to excuse her because you think she is a “lovely person”.
Nell
Well, she’s dead now, isn’t she? And if you believe in such things, she will be facing her maker, and her fate in the hereafter will be decided … I do so hope there is an afterlife, and that she suffers in it.
Gale
Rest in peace, Susan.
As a person who believes what Jesus taught, I know that Susan is with Him right now in Heaven, so all you ppl so full of hate can feel whatever you want.
To want someone to suffer eternally? Better check your own life.
dj
gale i am impressed that you keep coming back to this blog, month after month to defend this lady.
This is what you have to swallow: she may have received forgiveness from God, but that does not mean that her crimes were wiped away. The state has every reason to keep her locked up, even until she dies. her punishment was for murders which were committed. no amount of repenting will erase the crimes. perhaps in God’s economy, her sins were forgiven, but that does not mean that California should respond the same way. “pay unto caesar that which is caesar’s” – even if the payment is life in jail.
Tim
sweet jag!
Gale
dj, thank you for your comment.
I agree with you about do the crime do the time, but she was no threat in any way to anyone when
she was bedridden with cancer. The other reason I post is it is heartbreaking to see all these ppl so full of hate.
Being a victim of violent crime myself, I can say I forgive.
It is over now so I leave you all in peace.
§nuggs
one down…and may the rest suffer more.
Diana
Gale, sorry I have to disappoint you… Susan Atkins, she’s sucking c*cks in hell!!!
You make me sick! Keep reading that BS magazine that you call ‘The Bible’.
Greetings, a non-believer from Holland
Durden
Well. She’s finally free. RIP.
Stephen c.
Quite frankly, I don’t see the point why we discuss whether it would have been right or wrong to allow Mrs. Atkins to spend a few days lying in another area of this world as intended from the jurors 40 years ago.
Where I see a big need for discussion is that we seem not to make a big difference between crimes of the mentally ill and those who kill for money or other egoistic human needs. This was clearly a crime of a disturbed mind and someone who felt to have been betrayed by the game rules of society. The goal of a well functioning society should be to better understand the mechanisms of the human brain and through the gained knowledge learn how to prevent. We don’t seem to go in that direction.
Many of us seem to beleive that good and evil are created at some mystical place and we can simply decide which place we home onto. If that was true then we could make similar observations in the world of the animals but that is not the case. Not because they are so much more wonderful or better as we are but because the complexity of their brain (at least not the parts they’re in charge of emotional responses) didn’t get to the point where they are capable of failing as miserably as we are. According to recent scientific discoveries much less is free will than we might think. The more we know the more it becomes obvious that we are like machines, our mind programmed in the first few years of our lives. After that it is very difficult to make adjustments. Our actions and basic personality is determined for the rest of our lives. We just run the same program over and over again. Every single day in the morning is a restart of that program.
There are millions of lives left behind in this world. They are born into a family where their chance to succede in life is taken at the very beginning. Abuse, lonelyness, exposure to innapropriate behaviour, just to name a few causes. It only takes a few key ingredients to withdraw from a young persons life to make that individula fail in his environment. Most of them don’t fail in such a spectacular way as Mrs. Atkins but they all fail the one way or another. Exception makes the rule. Most of them don’t meet a Manson or a Hitler in their lives because they are luckily not born every day.
While we pay millions of dollars to people who can throw a ball far enough for our enjoyment, we don’t enjoy facing issues of disfunctional families or members of our community since it’s not even our problem so we are not willing to pay for that. Period.
I think that the Mrs. Atkisons out there are a symptom that reminds us on our failure as a community and a lot of us would like to kill these individuals because we don’t like to be reminded on that and on the fact that we are not wonderful creatures of some great entity but individuals who are very prone to malfunctioning. And it doesn’t even take that much.
Our desire to focus on punishment instead of prevention is again a symptom for our short sighted viewes and simplicity. We just want to continue our lives in the illusion that we’ve done something against evil.
I am very well aware of the fact that we will probaly never be able to help everybody but we are not even really trying.
I hope my comment hasn’t been misunderstood in a way that some of you think I would have granted Mrs. Atkins a vacation on the fiji islands.
Croc
Yes, it is over now! Where will you brain dead hate mongers take your venomous comments next? You should all get on your knees and thank God we still have people like Gale, Johnny G and Ken who still have human compassion and the courage to
voice their opinions left in this corrupt, hate ridden world!
The anti-Gale
“# Diana says:
September 25th, 2009 at 10:52 am
Gale, sorry I have to disappoint you… Susan Atkins, she’s sucking c*cks in hell!!!
You make me sick! Keep reading that BS magazine that you call ‘The Bible’.
Greetings, a non-believer from Holland”
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Odd that the only way you know of Hell is from that BS magazine called “The Bible”.
I always imagined that people from Holland were idiots, thank you for confirming my suspicions.
But I do hope our brain bricked little Suzie is indeed sucking c*cks in Hell. Sorry that by the time her brain was totally consumed with Cancer, she was in too much pain to appreciate it. Wow that must have been a horribly delicious death to watch. Thank you Jesus. Sharon Tate can rest in peace finally. Hopefully equally brutal deaths await the rest of Charlie’s Angels.
Spaceflightengineer
Atkins is no longer an oxygen thief, nor in hell, nor on some other plane. She’s dead- no longer do electrons flow
in her misbegotten pathways. Now when Manson goes perhaps a lot of us from that era can breathe a small sigh
and rest a slight bit more. The halcyon era that produced such tripe as “the clan”, and OK’d drugs for all the following
generations had so much positive going on that the dastardly crap so overwrote. I was part of the other better things happening- and
would rather emphasize the good things from then. Too bad Atkins got so subjugated by vermin. She seemed to have a brain
(when not addled by acid). Surely more of that group had potential (though from personal experience of having gone to school with one of them,
I feel some are pieces of shit from the git go). Time for the ’60’s to actually close out now, folks. Move on….
BP
Kathy
Gale … look at the picture … do you still want to forgive Susan if that was your daughter in the picture ?
Stephen c.
I’m wondering how constructive discussions about whom we shall forgive and whom to hate are for our children. Anyone can hate or throw around with quotes from a book. That doesn’t take a keen intellect. If want to contribute to a better world for the new generation than we’ll have to start thinking about how we avert future threats in our society after we neutrilized them.
Gale
Kathy, indeed I would want to forgive if it happened to my daughter or to anyone I love.
I would pray to God for the grace to do so.
Ebby
This is to Gale:
Hello Gale,
I’d like to say some things to you. First, my name is Ebby and I’ve been reading this message board for some time. Johnny G sent me the link and asked that I participate, but I declined to get involved due to the tiresome and disrespectful “Jerry Springer” mentality of not all, but so many, on this board (i.e. Diana’s comment). I read with amusement that someone thought you and Johnny were the same “twisted” person. (smile) Johnny G lives in Ireland, but is currently in Iraq. (I thought you might like knowing that.) And though you and Johnny aren’t the same person, you both have the same compassion and capacity to forgive, which is what initially drew me to Johnny. While I’m not sure I believe that Susan Atkins “deserved” a compassionate release, I hope my heart never becomes as hardened and ugly as some of those who’ve posted here. And when I find myself in need of compassion and grace (for whatever reason), I hope I’m surrounded by the “Johnny’s” and “Gale’s” of the world. (smile)
You are a bloom in the desert, Gale – don’t ever change that about yourself.
~Ebby
Gale
Dear Ebby,
Thank you for your sweet and kind words. As I read this I have tears in my eyes and cant express my gratitude enough. I also thank you for enlightening me about Johnny, I had no idea where he lived or certainly not that he was in Iraq. God bless him.
You too have a kind and loving heart to write the words you did knowing that most here hate me. They can hate, call me names, but I know I am right about this. Just trying to do what Jesus would want me to do.
“A bloom in the desert”, I dont know if I have ever had a nicer compliment! Thank you. As far as changing– I am just me, Ebby:-)
Also, a thank you to Croc who expressed their opinion (above). I am undeserving of these kind words but thank you.
A great thanks to Johnny and Ken for your intelligent and caring words offered here. People can learn lots from you.
May God bless you Ebby for having the courage and compassion to post this. Sincerely.
Phil
I read through many of the comments on this thread last night and thought
I would offer my response to it….partly in response to Gail’s issue of “compassion
and forgiveness” and also in response to some other comments made.
I feel many of us need to sort of think things through, here, mainly because a lot
of the opinions here don’t seem to be well thought through, and also because there
is a lot of faulty reasoning as well.
Firstly, to Gail’s exhortation that we have “compassion” and “forgiveness”.
Compassion, as it were, can be misdirected. You believe it to have been compassionate
to offer Susan Atkins a release from prison due to her illness. However, this act may,
on the balance, be woefully uncompassionate to the family and friends (as well as to the
memory) of Sharon Tate and the other victims of August 1969. It offers the murderer
(Atkins) the opportunity for a peaceful end, that was never offered to the victims (Tate,
Parent, Frykowski, Sebring, or Folger). You see, in participating in the murders of these
five people, Susan Atkins abdicated her rights, in the order of justice, to have her own
human wants met, especially in her time of dying. Some may refer to keeping Susan
Atkins in prison until her death as an act of “revenge”. It is not “revenge”, it is justice.
Only fair justice in compensation (as unsatisfactory as it is) for the deaths of her five victims.
Furthermore, regarding Atkins being “born again” or “being remorseful”, remember that
the act she committed was not due to self-defense, accidental negligence, or any such
situation that may mitigate her guilt. Her act of murder was intentional, unwarrented,
and taken upon truly unsuspecting and undeserving individuals. If she truly was
reformed, “born again” as it were (which a have sincere doubts about), and wished to
make a positive contribution in atonement, let her do so within the confines of prison.
Let not the family and friends of these victims suffer any more for the benefit of the
murderer.
Secondly, regarding “forgiveness”, to say we should forgive Susan Atkins is a faulty
proposition at its core. If person X commits a crime against person Y, it does not
make sense for person Z to say to person X “I forgive you for what you did to person Y”.
The only people who are even in a position to offer forgiveness would be the family and
friends who suffered direct loss, God Himself, and the victims themselves (should it be that
Susan Atkins, in her death, is in the process of once again meeting Sharon Tate, and the
other four victims face-to-face in the hereafter). It is not our place in any way to “offer
forgiveness” on behalf of these victims. In fact, it would be sort of an insult to the bereaved
family to do so.
Still….to all the others who have posted, I do say, for the record, that none of us knows
the true heart of Susan Atkins in her death and in her judgment before God (although we
all certainly have reasonable doubts). As for the state of her soul, let God make that call.
As for temporal justice in this world….our justice system made the right call.
Lastly….as for all of us “falling short of the Glory of God”, this is true…but come on,
have some common sense here for crying out loud. I think God does make a distinction
between stealing from work or lying to one’s friends, and cold blooded murder.
Ebby
Phil –
I find it interesting that you talk at length about Gale’s (and other’s) misdirected opinions and faulty reasoning regarding compassion and forgiveness, yet don’t mention, or appear to be bothered by, comments such as: “Kill the fucking bitches.” and “Susan Atkins is sucking cocks in hell.”
If a potential release, compassionate or otherwise, is to be measured against being woefully uncompassionate to the family, friends, and memories of the victims, then no one would EVER qualify for release or parole. Prison isn’t just a place for punishment (unless it’s life without parole), it is also a place to become rehabilitated for possible release, if that was an option given at sentencing – which in this case it was. People are not one dimensional- they can and often do change. And if Susan Atkins (or any of the other’s) are being kept in prison solely because of their involvement in the infamous “Manson” murders, which many believe they are, that is not justice – it is revenge. The law gives the right to try for release/parole, and it should never have been offered if there was no chance.
While I’m not certain I feel that Susan Atkins deserved a “compassionate” release, I did feel compassionate toward her health-situation, AS WELL AS for the victims and their families, one does not negate the other. Having compassion isn’t a bad thing. It simply means you have feelings of empathy or sympathy for a person/situation.
I maintain that I hope my heart never becomes as hardened and ugly as some of those who’ve posted here. And when I find myself in need of compassion, grace and forgiveness, for Whatever reason, I hope I’m surrounded by the “Johnny’s†and “Gale’s†of the world – and not the one’s who hope that I “rot” and “suck cocks in hell”.
-Ebby
Ebby
Gale, you and Johnny braved an onslaught of hate-filled comments for feeling differently than many do on this board. I believe that Vincent Bugliosi (the man who actually prosecuted Susan Atkins) stated beautifully and articulately the position of those who dare to have any level of compassion at all, and think beyond the one-track, narrow mind “let her rot in prison” mentality. Mr. Bugliosi’s comments, in part:
“She’s (Atkins) got brain cancer, she can’t communicate.. her left leg has been amputated and her right leg is paralyzed. She’s already served close to four decades, you can’t cavalierly dismiss that. I reject the notion that just because she showed no mercy for the victims, we therefore are duty-bound to follow her inhumanity and show no mercy to her at no time under no circumstance. To me, that’s being child-like. Because she showed no mercy, we can’t show her the tiniest speck 37 years later? I don’t agree with that. I didn’t have any mercy on her when I asked for the death penalty, but these are totally different circumstances here.”
That, to me, is compassion, grace and mercy at its finest.
Gale
Ebby,thank you again, I was just saying what I think is right and just. The parole board is to determine whether a person is a threat to society when they make the decision to let them out or not. I feel that because of who the victims were and who the person in prison was is the reason no parole, not even compassionate release for a dying woman, was denied. No one can deny that other prisoners get it.
I agree totally with you about Mr. Bugliosi’s remarks. I watched him on TV as he said he thought Susan should be released. I think he is a good man. He knows of all the changes Susan went through and all the help she was to others while incarcerated.
I, too, wondered why no one ever said anything about all the filthy talk and rot in hell attitudes of most ppl here.
Guess thats ok to hate and spew obsenities but not ok to have compassion. Thats all very sad. All I can say is I am not changing.
Thanks again Ebby, I would like to be your friend. Sincerely, Gale
Ebby
Hi Gale,
You’re right, these women would have been paroled years ago if not connected to the infamous Charles Manson. There are many child molesters and murderers released from prison – and after serving a lot less time than 40 years. Their crimes are every bit as heinous, but because they weren’t connected to Charles Manson and didn’t murder the beautiful Sharon Tate (no disrespect intended), they are paroled and freely walk the streets today. The Manson/Tate combination sealed their fate, making parole impossible. No one on that board wants to be known as “the one” who voted in favor of parole; but because they were sentenced to life WITH the possibility of parole, they continue the charade that there “might be a chance” and continue to parade them before the parole board. Upon over-turning the death penalty, they could have been given life without possibility of parole; and in hindsight probably should have been.
And you’re correct when you say that it’s fine to hate and spew obscenities, but then be lectured by a patronizing and condescending psych 101 major about the political correctness of compassion and forgiveness. Go figure.
Gale
Hi Ebby,
Seems I recall and could scroll up to make sure(but I dont care) that I was blasted pretty well for saying it was because they were the ‘beautiful people’ who were killed and that was why the women would never get parole, are hated, etc.
LOL! Yes, love the lectures from the psych 101 majors. Geez!
Why is it that so many people love to hate?
Also to Phil, if you read your Bible, it says we will be forgiven by the same measure as we forgive.
Thats means all of us, thats why I encourage the Tate family and anyone else to forgive.
Yes, it take work and prayer, but is so freeing.
The judging is up to God alone.
croc
The following poem reiterates what Gale has been saying!
BEST POEM IN THE WORLD
I was shocked, confused, bewildered As I entered Heaven’s door, Not by the beauty of it all, Nor the lights or its decor. But it was the folks in Heaven Who made me sputter and gasp– The thieves, the liars, the sinners, The alcoholics and the trash. There stood the kid from seventh grade Who swiped my lunch money twice. Next to him was my old neighbor Who never said anything nice. Herb, who I always thought Was rotting away in hell, Was sitting pretty on cloud nine, Looking incredibly well. I nudged Jesus, ‘What’s the deal? I would love to hear Your take. How’d all these sinners get up here? God must’ve made a mistake. And why is everyone so quiet, So somber – give me a clue.’ ‘Hush, child,’ He said, ‘they’re all in shock. No one thought they’d be seeing you.’ JUDGE NOT!!! Remember…Just going to church doesn’t make you a Christian any more than standing in your garage makes you a car. Every saint has a PAST… Every sinner has a FUTURE
Gale
Wow Croc, thank you for this awesome poem!
Indeed, we all have a past and a future, it is up to us how to live the future part!!
Thank God for people like you and Ebby! Also our Johnny!
Phil
Two responses….
First to Ebby…
If you notice, I didn’t use the inflammatory language that the others did.
Like I said, we don’t know the ultimate state of Susan Atkins’s soul. I thought
I made that clear. But to a more important point….anger is not always
unjustified. Evil is supposed to make decent people angry (that’s what anger
is for). Let me ask you, what makes you more angry, the brutal murder of
five innocent and unsuspecting people, or the murderer being allowed to live
for 40 years but just not getting to be with her family at the end of her life ?
Second to Gale….
Yes, I am quite familiar with the Bible. But, you miss my point. It is not our
place to “forgive” Susan Atkins for the murder of Sharon Tate. None of us were
the victims. Secondly, forgiveness is only asked of us if the perpetrator asks
us for the forgiveness. Granted, it may have been that Susan Atkins, toward the
end of her life, was asking forgiveness of the Tate family….but it is the TATE FAMILY’S
place to offer the forgiveness. We don’t have the right to step in and do the forgiving
in their place.
With regard to our relationship to God, it is incumbent upon us to forgive those who
have wronged US, and then have asked us for forgiveness. We are not required to
forgive those who are obstinate (although it may show additional virtue to do so).
Forgiving people for transgressions they have done to others is illogcial, and does
nothing to load our “forgiveness bank” before God. If that were the case, let’s all
forgive Nero for sending Christians to the lions, Hitler for executing 6 million Jews,
Stalin for sending millions to the gulags, Pol Pot for executing one-fourth of the
population of Cambodia, and, for that matter, let’s forgive Satan for all the evil he does.
You may clarify me if I am portraying you unfairly, but it bothers me that the brutal
murders Susan Atkins committed seem to be not that big of a deal to you. Rather, it’s like
saying, “oh well, we are all sinners, let’s just be compassionate and forgive her now”.
While the state of Susan Atkins’s soul is God’s call, in the temporal realm, she
abdicated all her rights before the law and before humanity when she willfully chose to destroy
the lives of five people, and deeply, negatively impacted the lives of dozens of others in August 2009.
Again, the judges made the right decision.
Phil
sorry…I made a mistake….I meant to say “August 1969” at the end of my post
Gale
Phil, you are quite distorting all that has been said.
I said nothing about a “forgiveness bank” and it seems you are the one making light of things. The very idea of bringing up Hitler or Pol Pot!
I am so very sorry for the Tate-LaBianca families! They suffered great losses as did the other victims families.
What I am trying to get across is that if we seek to forgive, we become spiritually better people.
No matter what I say it isnt going to sink in, I fear, so I leave you in peace.
Phil
Gale,
Everything you said did sink in for me, and you did clarify your point to me.
I truly wanted to make sure that you were not making light of the victims,
and the victims losses. I believe you when you say you are not. But, by the
same token, I am also not making light of the situation in comparing Susan Atkins with
Hitler or Pol Pot…there is very little difference between them, except for the
volume of people that were murdered. Again, I ask you in all seriousness,
do you forgive Adolf Hitler in the same way you say you forgive Susan Atkins?
(Regarding the term “forgiveness bank”, you seemed to be suggesting that
God will forgive us in the measure with which we forgive others….as if it
were that simple.)
To your other point:
I KNOW THAT IF WE SEEK TO FORGIVE, WE BECOME BETTER SPIRITUAL
PEOPLE (that’s about as basic a tenet of Christian theology as there IS,
for crying out loud). Please don’t act like I’m some sort of moral dummy.
My point is, and I am eminently correct about this, and you have FAILED
to address this point….while forgiveness is noble and lifegiving,
YOU CANNOT FORGIVE AN OFFENSE THAT WAS NOT DONE TO YOU.
You may truly, in your heart, forgive Susan Atkins for the murder of the five
victims of August 1969 (and also feel very good about yourself in doing so,
especially since you’ve been bragging about how forgiving you are on this
public board), but the fact is that such an act is meaningless, since you were
NOT the victim. Moreover, as I have said, it’s not your place to offer forgiveness
on behalf of the Tate family (and the families of the others), if that is what you
believe you are doing. I trust and hope that you do not regard yourself as being
morally superior to Susan Tate’s sister because you forgave Susan Atkins and
she did not.
Lastly, what I think a number of you on some of these recent posts are missing
is the other side of God’s nature in all this. While we all seek to exalt God’s
Infinite Mercy (as we should)…thus the doctrine of Heaven, we often forget that
God is also Infinite Justice….thus the doctrine of Hell.
In the end, not even God forgives everybody.
Gale, you are undoubtedly a kind-hearted, decent, caring Christian individual who
is seeking what is right. Maybe if we were in the same room, this fragmented
conversation might be different. You would surely be a fine person to have as a sister, or
as a next door neighbor. Unfortunately, I doubt you would make a very good judge.
I say again….the courts made the correct decision.
Ebby
Phil: Yes, I noticed you didn’t use “inflammatory” language. That was not my point. I found it interesting that you appeared offended by Gale’s comments about compassion and forgiveness, yet said nothing about the vile comments that I won’t repeat a second time. You stated that anger is not always unjustified. Of course it’s not, Phil. But I maintain that we can feel angry, hurt, mad, pissed off, pissed on, and every other emotion imaginable- and for Whatever reason- and still be courteous, respectful, or at the very least, civil, to the views of others. Isn’t that what sets us apart from “people like” Susan Atkins? Gale seems to be the kindest most loving one in this entire debate, yet the most persecuted for it. She must feel like the woman at the well. And no, Phil, you’ve not used inflammatory language with her, to her, or about her. Bullying comes in many forms; perhaps you don’t even mean to come across as condescending, patronizing, and demeaning in your long-winded attempts to make a point with those who don’t believe as you do. But, and I say this with all due respect, You Do.
I disagree that ONLY the families of the victims hold the right to forgive. Those heinous murders did not just effect the families; they effected society as a whole, and particularly the residents of California who were afraid to go outside their homes. To accuse Gale (or anyone) of feeling that the brutal murders Susan Atkins committed “are not that big of a deal” because of her stance on forgiveness and compassion is unfair. Forgiveness doesn’t condone anything, nor does having compassion.
Croc: a lovely poem that is beautifully put. Thank you for sharing it with everyone.
And finally, Gale: One thing I DO agree with Phil about is that you truly do come across as one who would make a fine sister or neighbor. And don’t worry about his comment that you wouldn’t make a very good judge. That is not your job. Nor Phil’s. (smile) I hope you never lose your capacity to love, show compassion, and forgive, whether others feel it misguided or not. If you’re misguided, I hope it’s always on the side of humanity.
Gale
Wow Ebby, what a lovely message to come home to, especially after reading Phil’s
Thank you for explaining to Phil what I was going to attempt to.
I so appreciate the kind words also. Any compassion, love or forgiveness I have come from God, I am truly thankful for that.
No, I am not a judge nor do I want to be. We have to have trials and courtrooms here but the ultimate judge is God Himself.
What Phil and others dont know is that my own precious mother was murdered and yes, I do forgive the person.
Thank you, Ebby and please never change the way you are. The world needs you.
Croc
Phil, your vocabulary and command of the english language is unsurpassed in this blog. You have said SO much, yet so LITTLE.
I’m still trying to decipher what you DID say other than making an attempt to put Gale down merely because she is a forgiving, compassionate person.
PS: You may be surprised some day to learn that loading your ‘Forgiveness Bank’ before God is very much relavant and necessary!
Also, placing Susan Adkins in the same category as Hitler and Pol Pot is ludicrous!
Gale
Another thanks to Croc this time!! I thought it was just me alone who thought Phil used so many words to say what………..exactly??
and your last sentence is so very true too!!!!