Stop the ACLU Blogburst Watch: Interview With William A. Donohue
His first book, The Politics of the American Civil Liberties Union, was published in 1985. His second book, The New Freedom: Individualism and Collectivism in the Social Lives of Americans, was written while Bill was a Bradley Resident Scholar at The Heritage Foundation; it appeared in 1990. Bill’s third book, Twilight of Liberty: The Legacy of the ACLU, was published in 1994 by Transaction Press; a new afterward to this book was published in 2001. Source
It was an honor that Mr. Donohue took time from his schedule to allow us an interview. It was even more encouraging that he had heard of Stop The ACLU and expressed his appreciation for what we do. I recommend reading his books to anyone that is interested in learning more about the ACLU and how their actions are actually harming civil rights.
Our conversation was very laid back and informal. After some small talk and introductions I started the interview asking Mr. Donohue his general opinion of the ACLU. Mr. Donohue’s answers will be quoted in the American Flag quotes.
I believe that the American Civil Liberties Union is based upon a noble purpose. However, they often work against that very purpose due to a radical interpretation of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I wrote about this extensively in my third book, Twilight of Liberty: The Legacy of the ACLU where I focused on how their view of liberty actually works against itself. They are an arm of the radical left. In my first book, The Politics of the American Civil Liberties Union, I also exposed just how phony their claim of being non-partisan is. The ACLU is not non-partisan. Social reform, in a liberal direction, is the sine qua non of the ACLU. Its record is far from showing impartiality. It is full of attempts to reform American society according to the ideals of liberalism. The truth of the matter is that the ACLU has always been a highly politicized organization.
In your opinion is the ACLU simply misguided or do they actually have a more malicious motive and agenda?
I have asked myself that question a million times or more. I guess that I think that some of them are just wrong headed and sincere while others are actually more malicious and seeking to actually destroy America from its foundation. Some that are just misguided yet sincere truly believe that they have to defend the extremist speech in order to protect all free speech. Others are actually malicious.
Norman Siegal is one of the few who I believe to be honest and sincere in their passion for civil liberties. He has at least come out and debated his point of view and that is something that is due some respect. So many others are cowards with another agenda that works against the best interest of the country.
At this point I asked Mr. Donohue about other ACLU members that had come into conflict with the organization over their own views and his opinion on their sincerity. I specifically asked about Natt Hentoff.
Natt Hentoff is a Jewish atheist who interprets the First Amendment entirely too loosely. He is one that wants “In God We Trust†off of our money. I do believe that Natt is one of the sincere civil libertarians who is very passionate yet misguided in his views. He has been very much involved in civil liberties. He came into conflict with the ACLU over his view on abortion. He came to the conclusion thinking in biological terms that unborn babies are human and do deserve the same civil liberty protections as everyone else. This is where he came into conflict with the rest of the organization. I think Natt Hentoff is a principled civil libertarian. He went bonkers when they tried to implement a policy that would censor critical speech from their own members, and rightly so.
Michael Myers is another principled civil libertarian. He is an African American man who I believe to be principled, honest, and sincere. He resigned after seeing much of the hypocrisy and censorship attempts at the ACLU. He is another one that is not playing politics with the Constitution.
In your book you often quoted from the ACLU Policy Guide. I have called them myself asking for this before and was told it was for internal purposes only and not for the general public. While they have this right, it makes me wonder what they are hiding. How did you get your hands on their policy guide?
Heh, yet it wouldn’t matter how secret or important to National Security a government document or information they are against was. They would still fight to have it published for all to see.
They cut me off from their policy guide about ten years ago. I first got access to their policies when I was a student at NYU in my twenties. I just asked until they revealed them to me. They opened up some of them but wouldn’t let me see all of them at first. They didn’t want me to see the FBI files on them. The FBI was more cooperative on that than the ACLU.
When I finally went to publish all the information I had gathered no one wanted to go for it. People said, “You can’t publish that! This is the ACLU you are talking about. You are in New York! No one will go for this!†I finally found a publisher through a friend at the Heritage Foundation in the 1982-1983 time frame.
I still received policy updates and was on one of the ACLU’s special mailing list for years before they cut me off. I guess they finally figured out that it was being used against them.
In reading your books I thought it was interesting that your knowledge and access to ACLU policies played a part in the election of President Bush (the father).
Yes, it was the 1988 Presidential campaign when the Democratic candidate, Michael Dukakis, proudly announced that he was a “card carrying member of the American Civil Liberties Union.†This announcement was soon used against him as George Bush decided to criticize Dukakis’s support and several ACLU policies. His campaign team got in touch with me, and I tracked down some of the policies for them.
In the first debate, Peter Jennings of ABC News asked George Bush why he continued to make an issue out of Michael Dukakis’s membership in the ACLU. Bush replied that he didn’t like most of the ACLU’s positions and offered four of them. “I simply don’t want to see the ratings on movies-I don’t want my ten year-old grandchild to go into an X-rated movie. I like those rating systems. I don’t think they’re right to try to take the tax exemption away from the Catholic Church. I don’t want to see the kiddie pornographic laws repealed. I don’t want to see under God come out from our currency. Now, these are all positions of the ACLU, and I don’t agree with them.â€
Of course several ACLU representatives came out and said he misrepresented their positions. However, I know that Bush was right. I know because I was the one who suggested these very policies to the Bush operatives who briefed the candidate before the debate, and I made sure to double-check my sources. I have the proof, taken from ACLU documents, that verifies that Bush was right. If anyone wants to check my sources I list them extensively in my book, The Twilight of Liberty.
One of the ACLU policies you revealed that particularly disgusts me is their policy in favor of legalizing the distribution and possession of child pornography.
Yes. The ACLU takes what I call an atomistic view of liberty. What they don’t seem to understand is that radical individualism actually works against liberty. There view on the First Amendment also covers what the call “Dwarf tossing†and women mud wrestling as freedom of speech. The purpose of freedom of speech has nothing to do with pornography or libel despite what the ACLU think. Anyone that believes it does is living in la la land.
I have written on their policy about Child Porn and many liberals just call me a liar. They want proof.
Well, you’ve got proof. It’s right there in my book.
That isn’t good enough for them. They will question your reliability or say that was an old policy. I doubt they would believe me if I put the current policy in their face.
Why don’t they explain to you what proof they have you are wrong? Why doesn’t the ACLU release this policy and settle the issue. It isn’t just you that has brought it up in the public before. They don’t deny it. Ask them why the ACLU doesn’t make this policy public and clear up the issue once and for all.
Barry Lynn, former legislative counsel for the Washington office of the American Civil Liberties Union, is on the Congressional record stating these positions. Lynn told the U.S. Attorney General’s Commission on Pornography that child pornography was protected by the First Amendment. While production of child porn could be prevented by law, he argued, its distribution could not be.
When you are dealing with the ACLU and many of its supporters you are going to find a lot of straight up liars. One time I debated them in a public forum of a college. I brought their policy guide with me on stage. I mentioned some of their more extreme policies. I think I mentioned their policy to legalize all drugs. The lady I was debating denied this was their policy. I said, “Stop the debate!†I called up one of the students to come to the stage. I said, “Someone on this stage is lying, and I want someone to be witness to who it is.†I got a student up there to read the ACLU policy. This lady left quite embarrassed.
You should tell those that doubt you have your facts straight to prove you wrong. The ACLU is a bunch of hypocrites. If they have nothing to hide then why don’t they just make these policies public? The funny thing is that there is not a single top secret document that they wouldn’t make public.
What would you say is encouraging in the fight to expose and stop the ACLU’s agenda?
The good news started in the 1970’s when more legal groups began to develop to oppose the ACLU. More and more Catholic and Protestant legal groups are appearing that battle the ACLU and have done a magnificent job. Our side is winning more and more of these battles where before the ACLU had a monopoly on civil liberty issues. There are several good organizations out there now including The Alliance Defense Fund, The American Center For Law and Justice, and the Thomas More Law Center just to name a few. There isn’t really one unified organization that opposes them, but several that fight them on different fronts. They are becoming more and more successful and this is good news.
It isn’t just the legal groups either. Cable and internet are doing a magnificent job, including your site, in an educational campaign to inform the public. FIRE (Foundation For Individual Rights In Education) is doing a great job of informing students of their rights on campuses. I know that our side is making great progress. Things were a lot worse.
The ACLU also doesn’t do as good of a job at reaching out to the public as they used to. Ira Glasser, who I am not a big fan of, did a much better job at public outreach when he was the Executive Director of the ACLU than the current one, Anthony Romero. They just don’t want to deal with the public. They have a few town hall meetings in elite and controlled environments, but they mostly avoid any kind of debate. I think that Anthony Romero was hired because of his ties with the Ford Foundation than for any talent towards public impact.
Can the ACLU be reformed?
No. They are entirely too corrupt. Norman Thomas, six time candidate of the socialist party and one of the founders of the ACLU, once said, “Instead of burning the American Flag, people should wash it.†The ACLU has gone far beyond this kind of talk into much more extreme realms. They are the legal arm of the political left. Even with a few whistle-blowers, the ACLU is more corrupt now than ever.
There are so many competing legal groups out there now fighting the ACLU’s agenda. I am pleased that the ACLU doesn’t own the entire field anymore. They still score, but our side has made a lot of progress. It is not from within that the ACLU can be defeated. There is way too much corruption to hope for that. It is from the outside that is the best way to beat them. With so many legal groups fighting them in courts, and internet sites like yours educating the public our side is making major progress. That is the way.
Stop The ACLU wants to sincerely thank Mr. Donohue for taking the time to honor us with this interview.
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